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Transparency in the agency business (featuring Steve Parker, Jr.)

How agencies can and should be more open with clients, employees, and others.

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Steve Parker, Jr. brings extensive digital marketing and business experience as CEO and co-founder of Levelwing. He is an industry leader, trendsetter, and occasional provocateur.

In this episode of Chats with Chip, Steve discusses his recent video Uncommon Transparency, and how internal and external transparency will benefit all agency relationships. He explores his own experiences and why he chose to produce a series of videos examining Levelwing’s values.

The discussion will provide agency owners a lot of food for though in how they interact with clients and their own teams.

Quotes

  • Steve: “We had to find those tent poles that we believed in, and said, these are the things that are going to hold us up via good weather or bad weather and in the world of our business, which always has its ups and downs. And so those three things that we settled upon were transparency, fundamentals, and setting expectations, or in other words, really good communication, internally and externally.”
  • Chip: “If you think about transparency, from an agency perspective, it’s a thread that runs through the entirety to the business, particularly for anyone in the digital portion of marketing, because transparency has to do with the techniques that you’re using and how consumers or audiences are seeing that transparency, how you’re being transparent with your own teams, how you’re being transparent with clients, or with partners.”
  • Steve: “To steal from Jeff Adelson-Yan’s words, he would say you’re either transparent or you’re not, there’s no sort of in between.”
  • Chip: “This is not something that’s just cropped up, it’s something that has been part of the business model of agencies, particularly those who engage on the advertising and creative side, for a long time. And it’s how money is made.”

Resources

About Steve Parker

Steve Parker, Jr. is the CEO and Co-Founder of Levelwing, an independent digital marketing agency specializing in analytics, media, creative and social. Levelwing was born in New York City and today operates in New York, Charleston (HQ) and San Francisco, serving some of the world’s most recognizable brands.

Parker has led the company since it was founded and he has produced record-setting and award-winning advertising campaigns on the largest global stages including cultural moments such as the Super Bowl and the Olympic Games. He has also been a part of the leadership team that has garnered recognition for the agency’s growth, including four consecutive years on the Inc. 500|5000 list of Fastest-Growing Private Companies in America.

Transcript

CHIP: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Chats with Chip. I’m your host, Chip Griffin. And my guest today is Steve Parker. He is the co-founder and CEO of Levelwing, a digital marketing agency based in Charleston, South Carolina. Welcome to the show, Steve,

STEVE: Hey, good to be here, Chip. It’s good to talk to you.

CHIP: It is always good to talk to you. We’ve known each other for quite a while. And we’ve had the privilege of working together on a project or two along the way. But for our audience, who is not as familiar with you, why don’t you share a little bit about yourself and Levelwing before we jump into the rest of our conversation?

STEVE: Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, my entire career has been in digital, starting back in 1995, although that was along the way to Fortune 500 companies to companies that did IPOs, and then starting Levelwing, and we started the agency in New York City in 2002. Not as an agency, but actually as a data mining firm. We didn’t use the term “analytics” that much back in 2002, if you recall, and so we did data mining projects and sort of profiling customer databases for brands for a few years. And we’d do that for agencies as well. And then one of our larger clients, still one of our larger clients today, asked us if we would take over and do all their digital media execution for them. So we started planning and buying and, and so at that point became an agency. And that continued up until 2007. In 2007, Facebook became public domain, brands started to have to communicate with customers one on one for really the first time. So we started a content development team and, and then in that period of time, 2007-2008, we decided New York was too hard of a place to continually find people and pay them well and retain them. There’s a continuity issue in a lot of large cities in this industry. And so we opened an office in Charleston, South Carolina, that became our corporate headquarters. And today, it’s our largest office, we still have a small office up in in New York on 50th and Madison. And then we acquired part of an agency out in San Francisco in February of 2017. Now, and so today, those are our three offices and, you know, our collective services are media, social, content, development, creative and and then obviously, analytics is still a huge core of what we do. You know, we’ve done really big things – we’ve done 12 consecutive Super Bowl campaigns, we’re working on our third Olympics campaign. You know, but in comparison to complete and total body of work, those are smaller moving pieces in all fairness in terms of time and effort and people than just driving ecommerce revenue and driving brands on a daily basis through digital.

CHIP: So you know, look, Steve, you’ve obviously had a lot of success. You’ve, as you mentioned, there’s been a huge evolution in the business, in the time that Levelwing has been around. There’s a lot more focus on data and analytics, there’s a lot more focus on some of the different ways that you can do outreach today that you couldn’t do 10, 15, 20 years ago. But, you know, the thing that that caused me to reach out to you for this conversation was actually a video that you put out that I think touches on a really important topic in the agency world, and that is transparency. Transparency is something that I think it makes a lot of agencies nervous, you know, it makes them think, you know, geez, if I’m, if I’m too transparent with my clients does that cut into my profit margin? And, you know, there’s, there is some legitimate fear about some of this sort of thing, because a lot of procurement departments do take advantage of any data that they get in order to try to drive down margins and micromanage. But those are the horror stories, and not I don’t think the general trajectory of things. So let’s, let’s talk a little bit about transparency. First of all, why don’t you explain this video and how it fits into a larger video series that you’re doing? And then we’ll dive into some of the issues around transparency itself?

STEVE: Yeah, sure. I mean, look over the years, you know, if I step back, even 2002, myself and Jeff Adelson-Yan, who co-founded Levelwing, you know, neither one of us had ever worked for an agency, we always worked on the brand side or the publishing side of the business, we worked with agencies – I’ve been part of hiring agencies, I’ve been part of firing agencies in the past, and but we really had never, we never operated within an agency, right. And, and so when we started the company, you know, our focus was on Let’s collect all this really great rich information. And let’s put it back to use in some manner, which today, you hope that brands and agencies is, is sort of central to what they’re trying to accomplish. However, in reality, a lot of things cloud that and get in the way, and so it doesn’t become the central theme. Unfortunately, as much as people talk about it. You know, but over the years, we just saw different things in the industry that we liked. And we saw that different things that we didn’t like. And as we started to continue to build the agency, we wanted to make sure we had some core principles that grounded us. In early on, you know, in the business, it was a looser structure. And as we matured and got larger and started doing bigger programs more, you know, started doing more Superbowl campaigns and now Olympics campaigns and in, you know, driving, you know, literally billions of dollars of commerce revenue a year, we had to find sort of those tent poles that we believed in, and said, these are the things that are going to hold us up via good weather or bad weather and in the world, in the world of our business, right, which, which always has its ups and downs. And so those three things that we that we settled upon were transparency, fundamentals, and setting expectations or, or in other words, really good communication, internally and externally. And so, you know, there’s a lot of moving parts to each of those, but we put out this, one of the things that we did this past year is we decided, you know, look, we always talk about these topics internally and externally, with our staff and with clients. But we’ve never really written about it, and how much we really believe in it, we’ve never put out any content about how much we really believe in it. So we decided that we were going to put a real budget towards creating some assets that help articulate that story and articulate what that means to us. And so that’s what this series that we’re calling Uncommon has become. So the first video in that series is called Uncommon Transparency. The second one, which will be released at the end of August or beginning of September, is called Uncommon Fundamentals. And both of those are complete. One of course is out, in live, which is Transparency. And then the third one is currently being filmed now and we’ll put out hopefully, by the end of the year.

CHIP: That’s great. And the transparency one is – I mean, it’s clearly, you’ve clearly put budget behind it, as you say, I mean, it is really well produced, it clearly communicates the message and it’s, it’s in a slightly longer formed format, I think it’s what 12 or 13 minutes, something like that. So it so it’s much more substantive than a lot of what others are putting out from a video perspective. I think that’s, that’s an interesting dynamic, you know, why did you decide to go with a longer form video than what is sort of the current conventional wisdom?

STEVE: Yeah, I think I mean, look, we could have easily put out a, you know, one or two minute, you know, video with, you know, any of us here on staff at Levelwing, or myself as a CEO, or Jeff as the president, or KB or a third partner of the businesses, as the managing director, we could have, any of us could have done that, it would have been nice, and certainly help illustrate what we believed in. But, you know, we, to be honest with you, we started having a lot of conversations that we’re doing – write a book? The three of us, none of us really wanted to sit down to write a book. So we decided, like, let’s, let’s produce a video, and you know, if you watch it, and if anyone listening, if they watch it, I think you’ll find it engaging and entertaining, you know, I, we took a very, very simple approach to it. So it’s not overly produced by any stretch. And we decided that we were going to go out and talk to in each of these videos, we would talk to three people that were heavily focused on the topic of transparency. So in this video, you have myself who is essentially the narrator and the person interviewing the folks that are in the short film. You know, one of the people in the film is Jeff Adelson-Yan. And he’s my business partner, it is a huge proponent of transparency and has been focused on it for many years. And really is the internal leader within the organization that drives that on a daily basis for the organization. Then we also have Frank Abagnale who most people will know him from the movie Catch Me If You Can, was a film that was based on his early life. Leonardo DiCaprio played him in that film. And then we have Anthony Giglio, who’s a good friend and is a wine expert, and he is the… he’s a sommelier. He’s the wine director for the Centurion Lounge by American Express. So we just took different perspectives, Jeff being internal within the industry, Frank being from the outside saying, here’s what I see in non transparent practices in the world, and why they occur. And then and then Anthony, from the standpoint of the wine industry, and what’s not transparent, and all three of them bring really unique perspectives.

CHIP: They did, and I think it was, it was a really good way to look at it. And if you think about transparency, from an agency perspective, it really, it’s a thread that runs through the entirety to the business, particularly for anyone in the the digital portion of marketing, right, because transparency has to do with the techniques that you’re using and how consumers are audiences, you know, are seeing that transparency, how you’re being transparent with your own teams, how you’re being transparent with clients, or with partners, and that sort of thing. So, you know, when you think about transparency, is it is transparency an all or nothing thing? Or is it a sliding scale? How do you think of transparency as a core value? And how do you implement it in your own agency?

STEVE: Well, I mean, to, you know, look to steal from Jeff’s, you know, from Jeff’s words, he would say you’re either transparent or you’re not, there’s no sort of in between. And…

CHIP: So it’s a binary.

STEVE: Yeah, it’s one of those things where, and even Frank Abagnale articulates this in the, in the short film, I mean, he, you know, he, he says, you know, look, when people are non transparent, one of two things that happens, someone’s either doing something they shouldn’t, or someone’s not doing something they should, and there’s no gray area, because as soon as you get into the gray areas, when you start doing things wrong, and, and the rub on that, and you see it on TV shows like, you know, A&E, I think it’s A&E has the show Greed, American Greed, it’s, you know, the guy already has 10 million bucks, but yeah, I got away with it once, let’s go break the law again to get 10 million more, you know, it’s, and then eventually you get caught. It’s just a, it’s a very sour road to go down. And it’s not a healthy road, I think, for any business. In certainly in the agency world, a lot of the transparency conversations happened around the topic of media, how agencies buy and sell media, or procure media, how publishers sell it, how brands acquire it, and purchase it through their agency partners or otherwise. And, and, and there’s, there’s some very non transparent practices, and there’s some that are very linear, which is, you know, hey, here’s a million dollars to go spend, and you charge the client a fee for managing that million dollars, but then you spend that million dollars and the publisher gladly sends you an invoice for 85% of the total, or some portion, right. And the agency keeps the upside, right. So that’s a non transparent practice. And that happens a lot at scale. I’d say it’s very pervasive in our industry, it’s been that way for many years. So when you start including technology, and Frank Abagnale will corroborate this – now it’s easier than ever to create non transparent practices. Before you could find it was simple to find the paperwork that would prove this. Now with with with third party DSPs and trading desk, an agency can mark up a CPM by 25 cents or $1, or $2, or whatever they want. And, and they’re technically on the paperwork may not be lying to the brand, that it’s a $5 CPM, but in reality, they’re buying it at $3.50. And they’re keeping $1 50. And that’s a huge margin. Right. So and there’s, there’s ways of hiding that through these technologies. And so, you know, that’s, that’s where a lot of this conversation has occurred over the last couple years. But then, you know, the same thing happens in, say, creative practices where the studio rental for a photoshoot costs $4000, but the client is charged $7500, or $8000 or $10,000, or whatever, for the studio rental for the day, or they hire a DP of, you know, Director of photography for a shoot and the DP cost them, you know, 10,000, but they charge the client 20. And they keep the margin. This happens in every aspect of this business and, in the only unfortunate side of it is performance of the media, or performance of the creative budgets and things of that nature don’t go as far as, as these brands believe they’re going. And so that’s, that’s where a lot of this comes from. But it happens, you know, happens in analytics as well, like, when tools are bought and procured software, and they’re marked up. I mean, if you’re not being transparent to the brand, or whoever’s dollars, those are, then you have to ask yourself, you know, are you doing the right thing? And Frank Abagnale, you know, he went as far as in the video to say, that’s just outright fraud, even if I’m protecting myself and the legal agreements from, from saying, Hey, I can do these things. If you don’t tell the client you’re doing them, then you’re creating fraud.

CHIP: Yeah, and I and I come down to the exact same place that you do on transparency. And I think it’s, you know, one of the challenges that a lot of agencies seem to have is trying to figure out, okay, you know, if we’re going to take this position, then as you’ve said, this is an ongoing long standing practice in the industry, right? This is not, this is not something that’s just cropped up, it’s, it’s something that has been part of the business model of agencies, particularly those who engage on the advertising and creative side for a long time. And it’s, it’s how money is made. So in order to to become more transparent, there needs to be another way in order to get your margin, right. Because if you’re not getting 15% of the ad spend, you know, behind the scenes, you either have to be explicit, and convince the client that that’s the right way of doing it, or you need to have a management fee, like you mentioned, yes, there needs to be some way that you still get compensated. So how do you go about having those conversations with clients who, you know, it’s new for them too, right? Because if every other agency that they’ve dealt with in the past has had these fees hidden? How do you make them understand that it’s a valuable transition, and still make sure you’re getting compensated fairly?

STEVE: I mean, look, the conversation, you know, is very simple. People can convolute it and complicate it all they want. But you know, we always sit down and say, here’s the way that we make money, here’s the way that we charge for our services, we stand by our quality and our expertise, and our capability and our commitment to you. And we outline it in which ways and how, if, when, why. And, you know, we detailed bullet point, all these SOW’s in very strict detail. And we, we hold true to that. And so, you know, we’ve had instances where brands have said, Hey, you know, the last agency, we’re going through our fees, or, you know, pitches, we’ve had some say, Hey, you know, our last agency charges only 5% media, we’re changing, but really willing to pay you 5% on media and I’m like, well, we don’t work that way, I’m sorry, right? Because they may have been charging you only 5%. But by the way, you don’t know what they were taking on the back end, they were taking down, you know, 15%, in traditional media, they were taking down 25-30%, in programmatic display media, or other other manners of media that you just aren’t aware of. So they were making plenty off of you, you know, you just procured them down to a point that really gave them little choice, it was either do this or don’t do it, and we just chose not to do it. So, you know, I think it’s very simple. Now, the reality is, from a financial perspective, if the agencies that are doing this, I mean, our own company, we could make twice as much money if we did it, you know, it’s, it would be a very simple way of turning on a faucet of dollars. But I think you just have to have integrity or not, you know, is what it comes down to. And we’ve chosen to have integrity in this industry, and stand by that. And so that’s, that’s the position that we’ve taken.

CHIP: And do you think that as you go through the education process with brands, you know, who are, you know, you’re sort of opening their eyes to what the practices have been, do, you find that to be a competitive advantage to you that, that they are now trusting you more because they feel like you’re being, you know, much more open with them, then perhaps other agencies that may have dealt with in the past,

STEVE: You know, competitive advantage or not, I’m not, I’m not sure for some, they may feel that way. And for others, maybe not, right? Because there’s two ways of looking at this. One is, if I’m the CMO, or the Vice President of Marketing, or VP of digital, or whatever, first of all, I want to hire a group that I that I want to hire, because I think they’re capable of doing the work. But at some point, – and you may not know them initially, right? Like, when you’re hiring a new company, you don’t know all the different players involved in, you know, likewise, in defense of all the agencies, they don’t, they don’t know, all the people involved with the brand side, you’re trying to build a relationship. But at some point, that relationship is either created to be stronger, because these practices exist, or it’s broken down, because you find out for some reason, you can’t trust someone or they’re not delivering, right, it’s, it’s one of the other. And I think that’s a big reason why you see so much turnover between, you know, brands and agencies working together. Because, you know, the lack of depth of trust and respect, has been lost, you know, over many years. And people that work in this industry have learned well, that’s just the way it is, it’s the way you do business. And that’s what Frank would say, you know, it’s, but it’s unfortunate, and it shouldn’t be. And you should do the right thing. And if the right thing ends up burning you because someone says they’re going to come in and do the work for cheaper than that’s fine, the clients going to get what they get at the end of the day, and at some point, they’re going to change agencies again, 18 months down the road, because they’re not getting full value for what they thought they would get. You know, and, and, and so I think it’s an it’s just an important topic, we, you know, we’ve, we’ve drawn a line, you know, not in the sand, but literally in concrete said, this is the way we’re going to operate. And that’s the way that we’re willing to be and I think you have to stand up for yourself and defend that.

CHIP: You know, we’ve obviously spent a lot of time here talking about transparency as it relates to pricing and expenses, and those sorts of things with clients. But transparency is really, as I mentioned earlier, something that goes to many different aspects of the business, and particularly something that we’ve seen, you know, recently with some of the the larger social networks, particularly Facebook, and some of the, you know, the brands, agencies and other service providers were working with them. You know, there’s a lot of questions about, you know, just how transparent some of the practices are, you know, what other things should agencies be thinking about from a transparency perspective, beyond sort of the pure dollars and cents? Are there other other transparency challenges that you’ve seen in your own business? Maybe working with clients or vendors that you think are worth highlighting?

STEVE: I, you know, I think one of the, you know, aside from the financial aspects of it, which we covered, you know, I think it’s ownership of data, right, its ownership of tools and technology. You know, that’s another area where we just decided that any brand that we work with, and we actually have agencies that outsource work to us as well. So in those instances, we operate the same way with them. Yeah, you know, we give them full access, you know, examples of that can be full access to billing. So we allow all of our clients being an agency or, or being a brand to, to pay all their own media bills directly to the publishers directly to the platforms that we’re using. When we sign up in license technology tools, like say, you know, whether it’s something like Adobe, you know, from an analytics perspective, then we allow the client, or whoever our client is, in this case, to own the, the license agreement, they can pay the bill directly, they signed the contract, we just use it on their behalf, right, we’re just there stewards of doing the right thing. And, and we spend all of our time and effort on making sure that we focus on education and expertise, so we can deliver the best within those guardrails as possible. Budgets are tools and technologies, whatever they are, you know, I think the other things that, you know, agencies and brands both should be aware of is just, you know, how all the these platforms such as, you know, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram’s part of Facebook, you know, you could, you could go on and on, you know, with with platforms of how they’re using customer data, you know, we could get into the depth and the bowels of privacy concerns, which would take us down a whole nother path of another conversation. But, but I think all those things kind of come along in that territory, right, and you have to make a decision on how you’re going to operate around it. And, you know, I’m talking on that topic for one second, I’ve literally been at conferences where I asked people, you know, are you are you concerned about your privacy on Facebook? And a lot of people say yes, and I’m like, how many people are willing to shut it off, and very few people are and like, but even if you did, Amazon is the same data. You know, LinkedIn is the same data, like, you can go Experian has it, you can go on and on. And you can get that same data from somewhere else. So…

CHIP: Yeah, we could go on for hours on the privacy front. And you know, my view, it’s a personal one is basically there is pretty much no such thing as privacy anymore.

STEVE: Yeah. So I think from a brand or agency perspective, I think understanding ownership rights to, to data, and the tools and technology you’re using are an important part of this transparency topic, because you need to fully understand that,

CHIP: Well I think that Yeah, the data point is, is I think, a particularly good one, because I’ve seen a lot of agencies and vendors who try to almost use the ownership of data as a weapon to try to force clients not to change the relationship. And my own perspective, both as someone who’s been on the receiving end of someone trying to do that to me, as well, as someone who has, has tried to do everything I can to help… I mean look, if I’ve got a client and they want to go to a different provider, you know, I mean, I’m going to make it as easy for them as possible, because they may want to come back to me down the road. But if I, if I screw around with them and make their data inaccessible, or, or difficult for them to own that makes no sense. So…

STEVE: And not just that, but if you’re being defensive in your posture as it relates to that topic, you’re just creating a whole series of mess and web for yourself, it’s more difficult to untangle, and a lot more aggravation than it’s worth. Right. I mean, it Look, in all fairness, I’m talking about transparency I mean, if you go back to, you know, 2011-12 with Levelwing, I mean, I think all agencies have either some intentional non transparency, which might be, hey, we’re going to bill out this amount, but only pay out this, this subsequent amount that’s lesser and keep the difference, which, you know, is a big issue that we first talked about. And then you have some, I would say lack of process where you talk about, you know, people not doing the things they should be doing. And in example, that would be 11, and 12. Like, we built out paid search campaigns and architecture for clients, we felt as though our architecture build was, you know, proprietary to us as an example. So if a client wanted to leave, we would say, Okay, great, you can leave and you can take all the keywords and in the bids, and all that kind of stuff, but we don’t give you the account, you can’t have the structure. So here it is a spreadsheet, just like a big data dump. And you know, in and we eventually get to the point where we’re like, Look, you know, we’re doing all these other things well in transparency, but here’s an area that we’re not. And that’s a problem. So that means we’re still not transparent, right? Because we’re not allowing them to have ownership of stuff that frankly, they should just own. Let’s create, you know, selfishly, let’s be easy on ourselves, which translates over to being really easy with clients so they can make their decisions that they want to make. And since that time, you know, we don’t have issues with that stuff. In fact, it creates a deeper relationship, because the client knows they’re always in control.

CHIP: Exactly, exactly. Well, look, we’ve only got a couple minutes left before we’re going to run out of time here. But you know, one of the things that you mentioned, I think is is particularly valuable to explore just a little bit in those minutes. And that is working with other agencies. So that’s something that you’ve mentioned that you do a fair bit of. And I think as we’re in an environment where agencies are, I think, increasingly becoming specialized and understanding what they do well, and finding ways to partner with others for the things that they may not do as well, or they may not have the expertise in. Talk a little bit about how you work with other agencies and how transparency comes into play there.

STEVE: Yeah, so so when when an agency becomes a essentially a client a Levelwing, we treat them the same way, as we treat any other brand we work with, they have full access to the billing, they have full control over all the tools and technology, if they want to pass on that full ownership to their to the client that they’re outsourcing the work from, if you will, then they’re welcome to do that, that’s their choice. Because that other brand isn’t our client, the agency is. But we treat them the same as we would treat any other brand that we work with. And we would treat another agency the same as we would treat Bridgestone, as we would treat Lenovo as we would treat Mercedes as we would treat, you know, Under Armour or any of the brands that we work with. So, you know, they get the same experience. And you know, you talked about you can’t be an expert at everything. And that’s exactly the hole that we fill for those agencies where we have a defined expertise and an area where they either have very little resource or no resource, and they need assistance in that. And that might just be one thing, it might be five things, you know, it really just varies in terms of services that we provide. But you know, that also goes back to like, you know, talked about that 11-12 timeframe, we said, hey, let’s look at all our practices, now we manage them. We also jettisoned 8 or 10 different services that we did back then as well, because those were things we weren’t just focused on very well, we didn’t have enough resource, there’s no way we’re going to deliver an A+ level service. So we just got rid of them. And in focus on the things where we feel like we can provide A+ level service. And I think every agency needs at some point to go through that honest conversation and practice and determine what are you really good at, what are you just average at? If you’re just average at it, dump it.

CHIP: Yeah. And it’s the kind of thing that will evolve over the life of an agency, right? You know, it’s the business changes, and you shouldn’t be afraid to change alongside it. You shouldn’t, you shouldn’t just feel like, Well, we’ve always done this, so we need to keep doing it there, there may be a good business reason to get out of a certain service. You know, down the road.

STEVE: Yeah, hundred percent.

CHIP: Well, so Steve, this has been a great conversation. And you know, you and I could certainly talk for many hours, we’ve done it before, and we can certainly do it here but unfortunately I’ve found that listeners generally prefer to keep their listening to about 30 minutes or less. So we will, we will honor that commitment to you the listener. Steve if someone wants learn more about Levelwing we’ll obviously include links to the video in your website in the show notes for this. So if you’re on the treadmill now listening to us or driving in the car, don’t stop, don’t write anything down. It’s all in the show notes. But if you are listening and you’re at your computer and someone wants to learn more, where should they go, Steve?

STEVE: Levelwing.com, you know, I’m extremely accessible. You know, like you can find my cell number online you can, you can find my email address, all those sort of things, but you know, we’re an easily accessible organization. So if someone wanted to reach out and ask some questions, always happy to take those calls or emails and, and get someone at least pointed at minimum in the right direction.

CHIP: Great. Well, thanks again for your time, Steve. Again, my guest today has been Steve Parker. He’s the co-founder and CEO of Levelwing.